#33 Twitter Is Facebook’s B*tch!


We cover loads of Internet marketing ground in this episode:

  • “Fishing is ridiculously like Internet marketing!” says James. So, that leads in to a discussion about finding the hungry crowd.
  • Timbo gives an update on his Google ranking for the search phrase Tim Reid Marketing Speaker. (Helped by LinkJuice)
  • We talk about the power of getting to know your existing customers versus chasing new ones.

Internet Marketing Products & Resources

Have you seen the Freedom Ocean Internet Marketing Products page? Everything we recommend lives here.


TIM:  James Schramko, welcome back to Episode 33 of Freedom Ocean. How are you, mate?

JAMES:  I’m good, thank you! How are you, Tim?

TIM:  I’m very well, thank you! And it is a pleasure to be back on the ocean. I have just had a few days in Bali, where the ocean was very warm and sublime.

JAMES:  Ah. Well, I’ve had a pretty interesting week as well.

TIM:  Right.

JAMES:  I went out on the ocean as well. I went out on Sydney Harbour and Middle Harbour doing some fishing.

TIM:  You love your fishing?

JAMES:  I do.

TIM:  You really love your fishing. And you catch anything?

JAMES:  Yep!

TIM:  So was it cold?

JAMES:  No. I caught some fish, caught a bonito and we also caught mackerel and brim or snapper. Yeah. And we did all different types of fishing. There’s so many different ways you can fish, it’s fascinating.

TIM:  Are you talking about there… you get a spear out? You had a line? Did you use dynamite?

JAMES:  No! But we did surface fishing, which is where you’re using a lure and no bait. You see the fish all moving at the top of the water like crazy. You look for birds, they show you where the fish are, you go over to the fish in the boat, you cast your lure and just drag, you wind it in fast and they jump on it. And that is exhilarating, that sort of fishing. And then you do drift fishing, where you put your line down without an anchor and you let it go to the bottom on the sand and they both drift and it drags along the bottom and you look for flathead that way. So that one, totally different style of fishing.

TIM:  Now mate, before our listeners all of a sudden think that—because we’re always getting new listeners every episode, you know, we get new listeners. We don’t want to lead them down the track, this is—

JAMES:  We’re on the Freedom Ocean, not a fishing show!

TIM:  Yeah! So I’m going to ask you then, because you will, you’re the king of analogy, where’s the analogy with fishing and internet marketing?

JAMES:  It’s just like internet marketing. It’s ridiculously similar. I mean—

TIM:  You would think that.

JAMES:  Well, you know, we could stick our lure out anywhere in the harbor, but it’s a waste of time unless the fish are there. So what we do is look for the birds because they show us where the fish are, so it’s like doing your market research. When you find the fish, you’ve got your starving crowd and all you need to do is put a bright, shiny object in the water right near the starving crowd and they jump on to it, and next thing you know, you’ve got the catch.

TIM:  I knew it! I knew it was there! And listeners, I promise we didn’t plan that. It sounded far too cliché’d, but absolutely the truth, fish where the fish are.

JAMES:  Yeah. Find your starving crowd. A lot of people think that they’re going to come up with this great idea and just do it their way, but the reality is if  you—and by the way, just to frame this, when I go fishing, I just pay the guy to take us fishing. He’s got all the gear, he does it all for us. He even baits the hook, takes us to the right spot with the right gear and we always catch fish, and that’s the way that internet marketers could learn how to do this. That’s why they’re listening to the show because we know how to do internet marketing and by talking about the different aspects of it and then implementing the things we talk about, some of our audience members; they’re literally catching the fish.

TIM:  I love that! I love that! Well, what we will do is… we’ll move on from that, but that sounds like a lovely time and then I didn’t go fishing in Bali, but I went snorkeling and I went where the fish were as well, so we must have been thinking in line, huh? In fishing line. Boom-boom! Please insert drum effect. Terrible! That was terrible! Sorry! I’ll get better as the show goes on. Hey, mate! A couple of things, we’ve got a bit to talk about. So let’s get stuck in! Two things, well from my point of view.

Last episode and the one before, we talked about a key word that I wanted to rank for in my business, which is The Ideas Guy, which is effectively a marketing consultancy. And one of the things that I do want to rank for is being a marketing speaker. And I think when you checked out how I was ranking on that two or three episodes ago, can you remember where I was in Google?

JAMES:  No. Some eagle-eyed listener would tell us, but it was probably position…you’re probably in the Top 14 in the listing, but definitely not in the top half of the first page.

TIM:  I know. In fact, I was way back. I think I was actually—

JAMES:  14th or something?

TIM:  Even far back. It might have been page 4, so well back. Anyway, as of today, checking before I came on in, I’m now on page 1. Page 1; rank 9, which I’m pretty happy about. I reckon with a bullet, I’ve got a good feeling about it. So what I did in regards to that, I took your advice and I wrote a blog post and I’ll put a link to that blog post in our show notes so you can see it, but it was effectively things—it was a bit of a little points, 8 points that I keep in mind when I’m a marketing speaker. So it was a blog post about being a marketing speaker. So that gave me a bit of juice. Then I went and I updated my bio on another website I had for my other lover, my other podcast, Small Business, Big Marketing. And that’s got a PR 5 rank in that website. And—

JAMES:  When you say that website, you mean the homepage on that website, right?

TIM:  Oh, well! That’s interesting! No, I don’t! I mean, the About Us page on that website.

JAMES:  Well, each page has its own Page rank.

TIM:  Yeah, right!

JAMES:  Keep that in mind.

TIM:  Yes. Yeah, you’re right. So well, a homepage is a PR 5. I don’t know what the About Us page has. But I did embellish that with some information about my marketing speaking qualities. And then—now, I’m embarrassed to say this, so feel free to get the virtual whip out—but I bought some dirty SEO—I call them dirty, I don’t know they’re dirty! Dirty SEO links, back links on Fiver. Hey, hey! Oh, there’s the silence! You’re still there?

JAMES:  I’m just shaking my head.

TIM:  Oh, geez!

JAMES:  Only because we’ve had some customers—we do quite a lot of SEO work—and one customer was going so well and then their site tanked. And when we did a back links report, they had the grubbiest links ever. And we said these links aren’t from us, what have you been doing? And they said we went and got some edu links from Fiver. And they were just crap links, like had no authority, they were the same pages, links from porno and gambling sites. And we suspect—I mean, it’s hard to tell—but we suspect that didn’t help their site in any way and probably dropped the average sort of link quality across the site.

TIM:  Right! Well, ah—

JAMES:  You have to be careful about that.

TIM:  Yeah, yeah, yeah, well clearly! I won’t then tell you that these links I bought were .edu links. (laughs)

JAMES:  (laughs) Well you know, this is the thing. It’s really trendy to get .edu links and they’re fantastic. But I’m pretty certain they’re no better than a good .com and it’s just that people say they trust it, but people have set up these scam edu sites that they just gorge for linking purposes. And if you were to compare that to some results with quality established mature back links, then I think you’ll actually do more good for your site in the long run. And it depends if you want that spy bot effect. If you’re lucky enough for it to actually work, good one, but—

TIM:  That’s hilarious!

JAMES:  It’s very dangerous. It’s really like buying drugs down at the local bar that have been made from rat poison. You just don’t know what you’re getting with a Fiver thing. The quality could be a little bit patchy.

TIM:  Well, well all I know is that it was a bit of a one-off and what I do know is that I’m now on the bottom of Page 1 with a bullet. I got a couple of other little ideas which I intend to activate shortly. I’ve got some video of me speaking and just been meaning to cut that up and upload it to YouTube and do some proper descriptions and tagging and all that. But you’re right because I used your SEO service this month, as you know, talked about in the last episode. I had a laugh about it in the last episode, coz I had a number of questions for Matt. But on one of the links, on one of the key phrases we identified, I’ve gone from beyond Page 10—oh, not me! A client who’s gone from beyond Page 10 for this keyword, onto Page 1.

JAMES:  Right.

TIM:  So there you go! I’ll send the testimonial later, mate!

JAMES:  Thank you! I’m not surprised, you know. And put it this way: with the hundreds of clients we have, if a customer can’t improve their rank, their report get sent to me. And I get about 3 a month. And when we look, it’s usually something that the customer’s got wrong with their site like the developer accidentally left no index, no follow. Or they took a carbon copy of the site and put it into a new domain and won a rank on original content or something silly like that. So I know our stuff works really well. Good on you, Timbo. So I’ve got something for you that you might find interesting. You know how you sometimes beat yourself up a bit because this internet stuff’s a bit confusing?

TIM:  Sometimes. Is that like…frequently! Yeah?

JAMES:  Well, you know, hourly or whatever. But I actually got a support request from one of our listeners who works for a very large company and this is a company who do several hundred million dollars a year in sales. And they embarked on an internet campaign and they were not getting the results that they had hoped for or that they needed to get. And they actually asked if I could just have a look at what they’ve done and give them some ideas. And the interesting thing is that there’s really not a lot of difference between the success they were having and the success that a lot of people starting out are having. So having the massive budgets and having all the resources available to you could still result in less than perfect implementation. So it’s really isn’t as easy or basic as one might think. So I thought I might give you a little bit of comfort.

TIM:  Oh, that’s reassuring! Well, it’s kind of reassuring in the sense that—okay, what you said is there are big guys out there having similar confusing times, but then you also said it’s not as easy as you think it is. I thought you’re going to say—

JAMES:  Well you see, massive companies, they’re not split testing. They don’t put out the minimum viable product and test it on a very small scale first before they roll hundreds of thousands into a project. They basically just come up with an idea, they think it’s going to work, so they just make it happen, it doesn’t work, and then it’s all…because they’re so far invested in it, they have to just basically do death rolls to try and make it work until it gets the plug pulled on it. And it doesn’t matter whether they’re a big company or a small company or single operator, there are just certain things like the surface fishing I was talking about before, some things that if you just do it right the first time based on a pretty good hypothesis and you test it in a small way, you’re going to know before there’s too much wasted resource, whether it’s a really good idea or not. So I’ve been doing it with my little businesses, it’s just rolling out new businesses and testing them and when they take, they just go, they really do go.

TIM:  Yeah, well that’s interesting. And I think one of the things that—because I grew up in an advertising environment, and it wasn’t dealing with massive budgets, you know, reflecting on those times I was looking after clients who were spending 10, 15, 20 million dollars a year on above-the-line advertising and there wasn’t a lot of testing. Back then it wasn’t scientific. The guys that were doing that stuff for the big companies were generally the direct marketers. The direct marketers, they’re the guys who have understood the power of split testing and making constant continual small improvements the whole time.

JAMES:  You know, I was reading a blog post by Drayton Bird, who’s a fabulous writer and copywriter—

TIM:  He is, isn’t he?

JAMES:  They were doing matrix testing way, way back and they didn’t invent it. They knocked it off from someone else, but well before we got the fancy terms of Taguchi testing and multi-variant. The direct response guys were doing this ages ago!

TIM:  Drayton Bird’s an interesting guy, just digressing. But I signed up to his list maybe 2 months ago and he’s not scared of sending emails. I think I get one a day.

JAMES:  Yeah. And I send an email a day on my blog. So that’s a whole discussion in itself, but Drayton Bird, along with Seth Godin, are pretty much the only people that I get emails from, I think. I do get your Small Business, Big Marketing emails, but I just want to keep an eye out, look after you, see what you’re up to.

TIM:  Ah! That’s very kind. You can reply to one of those one day and you can say a thanks sort.

JAMES:  That’s one of our tricks from before. How annoying are those no reply emails? They absolutely drive me nuts!

TIM:  Absolutely! I tell you what, that idea of on an email that you send to your list, the ability to put—no, not the ability to put. Just put a P.S. that says, “Got a question? Hit Reply.” That has increased the responsiveness of our listeners multiple times. I think it makes people feel loved.

JAMES:  It’s the first thing I teach a customer of mine in high-level coaching is I’ve seen people in forums brag about how they’ve managed to outsource all their support and they never even have to hear from a single customer. Their people are shielding them from refund requests and product questions and stuff. And I think you idiot! That is the best way to grow your business known to man, is actually respond to customers to understand their problems even better so that you can create solutions that are useful for them, and there is your innovation hub. That is your learning outcome. If you want to measure success, it’s really going to come down to what did you learn and how you can go back to market with a better offer or a refined offer.

TIM:  Yeah, yeah, absolutely! Absolutely! And you know what’s actually fun? It’s actually fun sending that communication and people might think you’re going to be inundated, and maybe every now and then you will be, but I think people are fairly respectful. I mean, we get long emails for both Freedom Ocean and Small Business, Big Marketing where people share some really interesting stuff. But it doesn’t take a lot of time. I find it some of the best market research you can do.

JAMES:  It is! It is. A living, breathing customer is your best market research. It’s not a focus group. Because there’s a difference between preference and performance. Now, when you do market research and all that mumbo jumbo, people will tell you one thing, but then they won’t go along and perform according to what they told you. If we made this, would you buy it? Sure! Yeah, I’ll take two! Hey, we made it! Yeah, and look, I’m not interested.

TIM:  Not wrong time. Well, as Henry Ford said, and I think Steve Jobs would probably have a similar quote, but Henry Ford said that if he’d asked people what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse. So I do love that quote.

JAMES:  So what are we talking about today, Tim?

TIM:  Mate, we’re nearly there! We’re nearly at the 30-minute mark! But what we did say we would talk about and close the loop on was a quote you made a couple of shows, 2 or 3 episodes ago that where you said, “Twitter is Facebook’s bitch.” And we had some very good responses, a few laughs, from people on our Facebook and emails. But I thought we should maybe finish this episode with a bit of a discussion about what you mean by that and how we both feel about those two channels. So what did you mean by Twitter is Facebook’s bitch?

JAMES:  Are you in love with Twitter at the moment or do you hate it again? Because you seem to have a love-hate relationship.

TIM:  The love of Twitter ended about 3 years ago for me, so that would be about 6 months. I reckon I’ve been on it for about 3 ½ years. 6 months in, I think the polish wore off and I realized that it was a powerful channel, but I think if I was to factor in the amount of time I’ve spent physically tweeting and mentally thinking up what to share, I’m not sure that the hourly rate would be satisfactory. So I can’t quite bring myself to letting Twitter go, but it’s not as important to me as it used to be.

JAMES:  Right. What I meant by my comment was that I’m not a Twitter expert. I saw some guy the other day. His whole existence on Earth is he’s a Twitter expert.

TIM:  Is that the guy in England? Tweeting in England?

JAMES:  He’s in Australia, I think. And I think it’s really sad, like that’s—

TIM:  Oh yeah! I know! I know who that is.

JAMES:  Do you? But he’s also still learning all about it. So I’m you’re either a freaking expert or you’re still learning, but you can’t have it about each way. Besides from that, that’s a very microscopic market. I think for me, it’s just a traffic repeater. It’s a way to rebroadcast my content. So I have a little—what do I call it?—an authoring process for content. It goes like this: it goes from my head into Evernote, it goes from Evernote to a blog post, it goes from my blog post to Facebook, and then Facebook to Twitter. And that’s basically how it goes. But it’s a rapid authoring process because it’s highly automated. So I can literally cut and paste from Evernote into my blog post. I post like normal and when I’m finished, I can go and embed that blog post link to my Facebook page. And that’s basically what I have to do.

After that, Facebook will auto-tweet that content and my job with Twitter is really just to log on to it maybe twice a day; once in the morning and once at night, click on my @ symbol and respond to anyone who responded to my tweet. And I’m only following 80 or 90 people. I don’t want all the noise and the crap. I’m only following mostly news services or people who have something interesting to say that I’m interested to hear from, and I just scroll through what the latest sort of updates are once a day, just to see the news. I like to know there’s been a change in politics or if there’s a tax thing or a bush fire, whatever. It’s interesting to know that in terms of society, but that way I never have to watch the news, I never have to watch Today Tonight, I don’t have to read the newspaper, don’t have to listen to the radio. So it really is my one news stream. So I use it as a consumer to be aware of the market and to follow some authority figures, and as a content creator and as a traffic device. I use it as my broadcast outlet for people who happen to be on that channel and who are interested in following me.

TIM:  Yeah, I totally agree with that. And in fact, in my more recent experience the last 12 months, I would say that Twitter is very much becoming a news source for me. I found out about the Japanese earthquakes on Twitter, I found out about Michael Jackson’s death on Twitter, and they are the things that I remember thinking, well, it was useful. I was like it’s instant, it’s right there and then I found out about stuff. But as a channel to market, less so. And when you’re limited to 140 characters, it does make it hard to actually be anything more than just some sort of an updating service.

The other thing I found is for me, it’s actually being good. When my business website went down a few weeks ago—literally went down, all content disappeared!—I went out on Twitter. And I had about 14 responses within 60 seconds, one of which is this guy in England who listens to both Freedom Ocean and my other show and he fixed it within 140 characters. And in fact, only today, this morning actually, he sent through a request for me to recommend him on LinkedIn, which I was more than happy to do. So I’ve always found it actually really useful. I’ve never tried Facebook for this and Facebook would probably be just as effective. But I found it really useful to have questions answered or to find service providers.

JAMES:  Well I think, basically, the summary for me is I think it’s a good broadcasting service. It’s good to catch other people’s broadcasts and it’s good to broadcast your own message. But for me it doesn’t really go any deeper than that. I may post the odd picture, I might craft the odd post, but it’s usually going to be something of mine linking to somewhere else, back to my race course, because I don’t want to build an empire on Twitter. And that’s what that other guy has done that’s so daft is he’s surrendered his whole business to some other platform which could be pulled from him at any point and then what’s he going to be an expert in now?

TIM:  Oh, you can say there’s a lot of people doing that with Facebook and YouTube and LinkedIn. I mean, that’s no different to—

JAMES:  It’s not a job. I don’t care what other people think. Really, it’s not a career! Don’t be a Twitter expert. It’s daft!

TIM:  Well that’s interesting. And part of me would like to kind of give it up, but there’s this part of me that thinks I should just maintain it. So I am just maintaining it now and not making it a major part of my marketing strategy, which I used to do. You know, interestingly enough, James, tomorrow I am interviewing the managing director of LinkedIn in Australia. And LinkedIn is something that I have spent a little bit of time on. I spent a fair bit of time on, but I haven’t immersed myself in it like I have Twitter or Facebook. So I’m actually really looking forward to getting a sense of how he thinks. Small businesses should use LinkedIn. Do you use it at all?

JAMES:  No. I advertise on it and I’ve got a bunch of people friending me on it, but I never log in to it at all because to me, I see it as the collar and tie corporate set, which has got zero interest for me. I’m not in that market at all. If I had a job and I was a CEO or a banker or something, I could see LinkedIn being useful if I was a business development manager for a premium enterprise software provider or something, sure. I could see that might be useful, but I really don’t think it’s my market. I think Facebook’s more of my market.

TIM:  I think that’s really interesting. I think, well, maybe you, but us. I mean, I could see LinkedIN being quite effective if we were ever to say go and do some pay-per-click advertising for Freedom Ocean. I could see LinkedIn being effective because I get a sense that there’s a large portion of our listeners—not necessarily the majority—but there’s a lot out there who we would call the corporate escapees.

JAMES:  I’ve been to one of our customer’s places and I think a couple of hundred million dollars worth of facilities—

TIM:  But there would be a lot of people listening who are—

JAMES:  I’m sure they would. I mean, I actually do advertising in LinkedIn, but I don’t participate in it. Because for me, this is the other thing. You’ve got to put the context to this. I know a far greater return on investment for me. I know exactly what I should be doing, so I have my favorite traffic channels. So LinkedIn is not a product, it is a traffic channel. It’s a marketing conduit to your product. So I’ve got bigger, fatter pipelines pushing business into my business. And if I spend time developing relationships with is my existing customers without even having to worry about getting a single new customer, I can grow my business, double it, quadruple it faster than turning on a pipeline of brand new people who I’ve got to go through all the rigmarole with!

And this is what I think so few people understand, it appears to be. Stop wasting all this time trying to get new customers, just maintain and sustain the relationships with you existing customers and you don’t have to use those services for that. You can definitely do it in a closer environment, to the point I actually have a workshop in my house this week. First time I’ve done that. I’ve been planning to do it for years and I did it and it was one of the most satisfying things I’ve ever done. Just having 6 people in the room and really digging into business and helping them to understand their business and helping me to develop my very best customers and help their business grow because my business automatically grows as their business grows.

TIM:  It’s very interesting. Were those 6 people who came were people who…we’re they part of the Silver Circle or had been to Fast Web—

JAMES:  Yeah, they were Silver Circle people who took the Silver Circle Intensive.

TIM:  Oh, okay!

JAMES:  So this is not even marketed to the public. People from public can’t come to this event. They have to first be in Silver Circle and then within Silver Circle, I have a very small workshop intensive. And to come to that, it really helps that they’ve been with me for several months on a weekly call, building up the building blocks and getting their business ready to take off. It’s quite interesting, but a lot of them had the same experience where their business is almost, in one case, it doubled in three months and it was not an unsubstantial business to start with.

Already a six figure but doubled in 3 months with this continual exposure. And the thing that we really identify that’s causing that was that they’d all repotted. They’d all gone from their constrained pot plant into directly into the ground with an environment around them to support and nurture that the next stage of growth for their business. And I know I’m slightly off-track here, but what I’m saying is I’m telling these people don’t worry so much about obsessing over all these tricky ways to go and get new customers because the money in your business is sitting there with people who have already dealt with and have dealt with in the past. So customer reactivation for me is a more important priority than the customer acquisition.

TIM:  Well if you just had a business that hasn’t got—because you’re talking about, I mean, some of these people have already got significant lists, so what if you’re talking about business that isn’t—

JAMES:  No, they don’t have significant lists! I mean, someone like you. You’ve probably dealt with people for several years but a lot of your energy goes on finding new customers, but there’s probably a number of things you could do to collate and curate and repackage and extend the offers that you currently have to go back to the people who you’ve already dealt with. Everyone that you’ve ever done a keynote address for is probably more warm candidate for you to do a keynote address tomorrow than someone you don’t know yet from LinkedIn.

TIM:  Yep, yep, fair point! Fair point! Well, that’s worth a show so far and I’d like to hear more about—

JAMES:  But I will listen to your LinkedIn interview and I’ll happily take an opinion because I really don’t know a lot about it.

TIM:  And that’s why I’m actually quite excited. It’s been pretty hard to get and nail this guy down for an interview. And in fact, what we did yesterday was email out to our lists just to say hey we’re interviewing the—because there is a lot of interest, the typical insight into LinkedIn and we won’t spend too much time talking about LinkedIn now, but it’s like geez, I’ve got all these connections, these requests to connect, and I accept them but I don’t know what to do after that. And we sent an email out to our listeners yesterday and asking them hey, what would you ask if you had the opportunity to sit with the guy, the managing director of LinkedIn, what would you ask him and we got about 40 responses.

So it’s clearly topical and it’s probably a question—mine, it was all about exactly like how do I use it? Why should I pay for the premium service, how do I use the free service to optimize my business? So mate, before we wrap it up, we’ve talked about Twitter, that’s your broadcast medium, it’s the way of finding news. So Facebook for you, then how would you summarize Facebook within your business in a couple of words or a couple of sentences?

JAMES:  It’s one of the strongest relationship builder platforms that I’ve got. I mean, everyone is on it. It is the place to be. Forget Google+ or whatever. Facebook is one of the best places to build relationships and to be able to access huge communities. I’ve got the insights, just on my fan page of about 2 ½ thousand people, I access 1.1 million friends of friends, and so that’s broad reach. Plus I use paid Facebook advertising. It’s an absolute winner, crushing it with paid Facebook advertising. It drives people straight into websites, to SEO, to my information products. So I think Facebook is great.

However, I’ve moved everything back one layer, and by that I mean I want to own the racecourse so I’ve started my personal blogging. And where I would have gone to Facebook and post something useful, now I’m posting it on my blog and then I’m embedding my blog. And I think in the last 2 weeks I’ve sent out a blog post every day and I’m building up a new list there and the open rate on the emails is about 50 percent, so it’s very, very strong for daily email. And I’m just going to keep going at that in over a year or two. I think it will be an asset. So whatever happens to Facebook, it won’t really matter. But over time, I think I’ll migrate the majority of my fans and contacts into my system somewhere, so they’ll be on a blog or a list or into a product database that I can maintain contact no matter what happens. So Facebook is the traffic for me, not a product.

TIM:  So when you say you want to own the racecourse, you’re back to blogging and not—I mean, what you would have updated, the blog post that you’re now writing and putting on your own website, you would never put on Facebook anyway because—

JAMES:  Yes I would have. I used to blog on the Facebook notes. I mean, not on JamesSchramko.com. They actually feed on Twitter, those posts, they’re tiny. And people loved the tiny posts!

TIM:  They do. Okay, so the posts that you’re writing now daily, you’re saying you would have put that holus-bolus onto a Facebook update prior?

JAMES:  Yeah. And I thought this is stupid. I need to take my own advice here and put it on my property and then I’ll promote my property to my Facebook.

TIM:  Well I wonder to whether—what you said about Facebook ads is interesting because I still think—and you said you’re getting a fair bit of traction from using them. One thing I hear from a lot of small business owners is that Facebook ads still feel a little bit invisible. We don’t look to the right. I mean, people used to say that about Google ads, but now that’s not the case. People actually rely on those Google ads and click on them more often.

JAMES:  But that’s an opinion. That’s bullshit.

TIM:  Yeah, well you’ve got numbers to back it up—

JAMES:  Well, let’s work with facts. You put the ad up and either people click on it and buy something or they don’t. And you can measure that with the inter-webs, you know. So you can factually say this is effective or this is not effective. And remember that most businesses have no clue about most things anyway because they end up going bust. So you have to factor in that in any market, there’s only a handful of operators that actually have a clue and those people are cleaning up. And there’s people spending thousands everyday on Facebook, making tens of thousands everyday back. It’s a matter of going back to fishing, we started at the beginning of the episode. You find those fish at the surface and just cast your lure straight over the top.

And in my case, I’m doing some pretty targeted, focused demographic advertising. I mean, I know exactly who my audience is and we know where they are and we know what offer they’re interested in and we just test that. Because I have Jen helping me with running a bunch of different graphics, like they’ll do a dozen different ads for the same product and I give them a tracking link and we basically check the conversions if we’re making more money with our sales than what it cost us to get the customer, that’s a good marketing strategy.

TIM:  Oh you mentioned Jen, that’s Jen Sheen, and I had Jen on my Master Class late last year and she went through some wonderful insights into how to make your—and she did it on Fast Web Formula 3 as well, where just some really simple little tricks, even down to the testing of putting a border around your image in your ad, what to put in the image in your ad, what color the border should be, what thickness the border should be. There’s some really clever little insights that people can get hold of.

JAMES:  One of the simplest ones that I do is I have 3 different pages in the personal profile and I can actually target people who are on my other pages. They’re on one but not the other. I can actually access those people directly and be just marketing to them, so it’s extremely targeted.

TIM:  If people want to find out that, James, and we’ll wrap this up because out 30-minute show has gone to 45! But if people wanted to find out more about that, because we could talk for a long time about how to maximize, you use the Facebook. They can go to our products page at FreedomOcean.com and they could get my Master Class where Jen talks about two hours on how to create a Facebook advertising campaign or they could get—can they still get Fast Web Formula 3, the videos? Because Jen spoke there as well.

JAMES:  No. It’s gone.

TIM:  It’s off the market. It’s going to be part of the—

JAMES:  It’s not available as a stand-alone. It’s part of the new community that’s coming. But they can pre-register for that in our products page. Just click on any of the banners and they’ll get an early opening offer.

TIM:  I would highly recommend that you do one or together or both because there are some absolute gold, and without us going on to detail on Facebook, you could hear it all from Jen. So mate, lovely to hear your dulcet tones and—

JAMES:  You know, Tim, don’t get all excited, but my ninjas asked when the next episode is coming out. They are avid listeners.

TIM:  They’re what?

JAMES:  You should say hi to them.

TIM:  Hello, ninjas! We love the ninjas. We love getting this ninjas, and the more often Freedom Ocean gets ninja’d, the more often we know it’s getting out there. So I think we’re back into a nice little flow. One of the things that we have agreed upon and our listeners will probably have picked up on my now, is that the show’s much more topical, but we are going to cover what’s on our minds, with me asking questions along the way as is the premise of the show. But I think it works well. And the ninjas do a wonderful job, getting the transcripts out—and listeners, if you sign up at FreedomOcean.com, you’re going to get a transcript of every single show that we’ve ever done and every show in the future. And there are some listeners creating books out of them, James. Maybe we should do that one day and print it.

JAMES:  Ah, we can make an iBook and—

TIM:  We could.

JAMES:  The ninja’s have already done that, just quietly. They have made an iBook from Freedom Ocean.

TIM:  Stop it! Stop it! Where do we find that? Is it on the newsstand?

JAMES:  It’s on their computer at the moment. They’re in development. We think the information product is going to have a massive run.

TIM:  Yeah, good! Well mate, until next week. It’s been a pleasure. And thank you for sharing. Listeners, thank you for tuning in and that is another episode of the ocean in the can. See you next week, James!

JAMES:  See you, Timbo!

TIM:  See you, mate!


  1. Tim, Tim, Tim…..naughty boy! At about 6:30 into this one you admitted you have slept with the devil. FIVERR backlinks? Dirty dirty boy.

    When I first started with the SEO of my site, I fell into a similar trap. 1000’s of spammy backlinks. I had a ‘professional’ look at my site and he mentioned that may be hurting me and my ‘profile’ and that Google may even be filtering me.

    He went on to say he would spend the first two months of any engagement with him to attempt to ‘clean them up’ by contacting the webmaster and ask to remove them along with other ‘technical methods’ (?) Sounded like a load of bollocks to me but hey…what do I know?

    Thanks for the weekend treat!



    • Hi Dave … I know, I know. I feel very dirty. But I just couldn’t help myself. So cheap .. offering so much potential! Ah well, we live and learn. Now you’ll have to excuse me, I’m just heading over to Fiverr ;0)

  2. Another great podcast guys.

    Disappointed in Tim for the Fiverr slip up..

    “Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes”…Mahatma Ghandi.

    And James, I run a charter fishing boat in Cardiff, South Wales. So the next time your in the UK give me shout and I’ll give a good deal.. 🙂


  3. I like to think of social media as a bar. Facebook is like your bunch of friends standing in a circle discussing stuff, and friends of friends join in when the walk past. Where as Twitter is like a guy in the corner shouting across the room about something, and if someone wants to interact they shout back across the room, else everyone ignores him

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